What's the Point?
There are those who, while affirming the Deity of Jesus, deny the doctrine of the Trinity. They are called modalists, since they believe that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are mere modes of the unitarian God. They teach that Jesus is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I have found in defending the biblical doctrine of the Trinity against this heresy, its adherents will not argue the point in dispute. They will accuse me either of tritheism or Arianism. But I affirm both monotheism and the Deity of Jesus Christ (as does the doctrine of the Trinity).
The real point to be argued is this, “Does the Bible teach that there are personal distinctions between the Father Son and Holy Spirit?” Since Trinitarians and modalist both affirm monotheism and the Deity of Christ, there is no reason to argue these points. But modalist almost universally want to argue these very points. This is because for them to argue the real point of difference (personal distinctions in the Deity) is a loosing battle.
So, they will argue, one God cannot be three gods. I agree! But that is not what the Bible teaches and it is not what Trinitarians believe. The Bible teaches that there is One God who is three Persons. If they want to say that One God cannot be three divine Persons, or, if there are three divine Persons that must mean that there are three gods, then they are arguing philosophically - not biblically.
For if the Bible teaches that there is only one God (and it does), and that there are three divine Persons (it does), then the three divine Persons must be the one God.
Therefore, the debate, to be of any use, must ask the question, “Does the Bible teach that there are Personal distinctions between the Father Son and Holy Spirit?”
Now tell me, doth this offend you?
I have found in defending the biblical doctrine of the Trinity against this heresy, its adherents will not argue the point in dispute. They will accuse me either of tritheism or Arianism. But I affirm both monotheism and the Deity of Jesus Christ (as does the doctrine of the Trinity).
The real point to be argued is this, “Does the Bible teach that there are personal distinctions between the Father Son and Holy Spirit?” Since Trinitarians and modalist both affirm monotheism and the Deity of Christ, there is no reason to argue these points. But modalist almost universally want to argue these very points. This is because for them to argue the real point of difference (personal distinctions in the Deity) is a loosing battle.
So, they will argue, one God cannot be three gods. I agree! But that is not what the Bible teaches and it is not what Trinitarians believe. The Bible teaches that there is One God who is three Persons. If they want to say that One God cannot be three divine Persons, or, if there are three divine Persons that must mean that there are three gods, then they are arguing philosophically - not biblically.
For if the Bible teaches that there is only one God (and it does), and that there are three divine Persons (it does), then the three divine Persons must be the one God.
Therefore, the debate, to be of any use, must ask the question, “Does the Bible teach that there are Personal distinctions between the Father Son and Holy Spirit?”
Now tell me, doth this offend you?
posted by takin | 1:25 PM
29 Comments:
Takin;
The trinity is a core Catholic doctrine (not Biblical).
Both modalism and Trinitarianism are false doctrines.
The Bible does not teach that there is one God who is three persons.
You Takin teach this lie along with the Catholic Church.
Oh! Before I continue I like to make it clear, I do not hate Catholic and Trinitarian people, perhaps I might use strong words which are not intended against you as a person.
Takin! I love you as a brother loves a brother!
You don’t have to be spiritual to hear this lie.
How does that sound to you and your readers?
My God is three persons!
My Father is three persons!
He is three persons!
He is three!
Before you jump to conclusions, please wait for a while and then think again!
Takin;
Have you considered whether it offends the Lord of glory Jesus Christ?
Paul G,
You said, 'Both modalism and Trinitarianism are false doctrines.'
From your writing I know that you do believe that Jesus is God. I also know that you reject the personal distinctions between the Father Son and Holy Spirit. If you are not a modalist, what is your view of the biblical distinctions between the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
You said, 'The trinity is a core Catholic doctrine (not Biblical).'
Guilt by association?
I am not a Catholic, never have been! If a false religious group teaches something true iot does not make it a lie. If you are going to argue against the doctrine of the Trinity you must argue against it on its own merits. The question is, does the Bible teach the Triune nature of the one true God?
I am out of time. More later.
takin
Takin;
The Bible does not teach the Triune nature of the one true God.
This teaching comes from Rome the Antichrist Church and has been passed on to all the Trinitarian churches.
God does not have a nature!
John 4:24 God is Spirit (Holy Spirit,)who created in Genesis the natures of His creation.
Now the nature is the borders and restrictions, its habits, likes and dislikes what it can and can not do etc.
Plants, Birds, Animals, the Beast of the field and man, also Angels have a nature, everything which God created has a nature, He created them after their kind Genesis 1:24.
Everything has one nature!
Since God is not a created being; He does not have a nature.
However, when God became flesh, or if you like, became a man Jesus Christ, He took on the nature of Adam, in the likeness of Adam, or the second Adam.
Now Adam had one nature the nature of man, the same nature which God took on Himself in the flesh.
After the fall of Adam and Eve, man had two natures, the nature of man and the nature of the beast (the devil).
Jesus did not have two natures like you and I, He only had one nature, the nature of Adam.
At the Cross, Jesus also dealt with our second nature the ‘Beast Satanic’ nature and caused us to be born again in the likeness of God, Jesus and Adam with one nature.
To go into all the details, it would take many pages.
Again I like to say that I do not believe in any Catholic teaching, not even in one, if so I would severely question myself.
Takin;
There is no personal distinction between the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Trinitarians say “personal” meaning separate persons.
This is not true!
John 4:24 God is Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit who in Genesis created everything.
The same person God who is the Holy Spirit came upon Mary, Luke 1:35 and the Holy offspring shall be CALLED the Son of God, Emanuel= God with us.
God who is Spirit became flesh, or clothed Himself in flesh and dwelled among us.
Always the same (one) person the Holy Spirit who created everything in Genesis is said in John 1:1 is Jesus Christ who created everything.
God who is the Holy Spirit created His own body to dwell in bodily form in Jesus Christ.
(Veiled the incarnate deity).
When Jesus said “Father”, He is talking about the Holy Spirit who is in His body, John 14:10
The Spirit who came upon Mary in Luke 1:35 is the Holy Spirit in Jesus whom He calls Father.
2 Cor. 3:16+17 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit.
Takin, you are very wrong and have bought into the biggest lie that Satan has ever produced, “the Trinity”.
To me it’s not to win an argument, I rather lose the argument in order that I might win you for Jesus Christ alone.
You said!
“Guilt by association? ”
Yes! If you say Jehovah is God then I have the right to call you a Jehovah Witness, because you witness and testify to Jehovah.
I only witness and testify to Jesus Christ openly and unashamedly declare that Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty, He is the alpha and omega the beginning and the end, the first and the last and before Abraham was Jesus said I AM.
1 John 5:20 Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life.
Paul G,
As can be seen by the infrequency with which I post, I have very little time to devote to blogging. And I will be away for the next week.
Two things:
First, when I use the word “nature” with reference to God I am speaking of His essence or what He is like. God is a Being. A unique Being. He has revealed in His Word some of what His Being is like. What God has revealed about Himself (His attributes) define His nature. If you do not like the word “nature” then I can use the word “essence” or Being or Deity sense that is His nature.
Second, you said, “When Jesus said “Father”, He is talking about the Holy Spirit who is in His body, John 14:10”
John 14:10 says,
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.”
You said, “...He is talking about the Holy Spirit...” Who is talking about the Holy Spirit? And if He does not speak on His own initiative, whose initiative does He speak on?
Takin
Takin;
I like the word ‘nature’ because it is Scriptural.
The word ‘essence’ is not Scriptural and has no strong foundation and is flexible.
John 14:10
1) You said “who is talking about the Holy Spirit?”
The answer is simple!
It is Jesus who is talking about His Spirit.
Or do you think He is talking to another Holy Spirit next to His Spirit?
How many Holy Spirits do you think there are?
2) You said “And if He does not speak on His own initiative, whose initiative does He speak on?
Again the answer is simple!
Jesus is speaking by the Spirit who is in Him, or by His Spirit’s initiative.
Just like you and I who should speak by the Spirit and walk by the Spirit, because we are the sons of God created in His image.
To everyone;
Isaiah 63:16
You O Lord are our Father our Redeemer from of old is your name.
Question!
Which LORD is your Father?
And which FATHER is your Redeemer?
And what is the NAME of the Father and the Redeemer?
I think anyone should be able to answer truthfully these questions, without cooking up a concoction of theoretical deception.
If you can not answer them, then you seriously have to question your religion.
Paul g,
John 14:10 says,
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.”
If Jesus is the Father who is the Holy Spirit and Jesus is speaking by the initiative of the Holy Spirit who is the Father who is Jesus, then how can Jesus say that He is not speaking by His own initiative?
Or, are you saying something like this: There are no personal distinctions in the Deity, but the Man Jesus is a distinct person from God.
If there is no personal distinction between the one speaking and the one upon whose initiative He is speaking then for Him to say, "I do not speak on My own initiative" is a farce and a lie.
Takin
Takin;
I like to make that clear, that the doctrine of God is the most important doctrine of all doctrines and no one should err on that. Anyone who is wrong in that doctrine is more likely wrong in all other doctrines of the Scripture, or worse ‘will die in their sin. John 8: 24
You said,
“Or are you saying something like this: there are no personal distinctions in the Deity.”
Answer; Exactly! I have said that many times, (NO personal distinction in the Deity!)
Continually you said,
“But the Man Jesus is a distinct person of God.”
Answer; I do not like this terminology, because it is Trinitarian thought and language, I rather say it like this, ‘God (who is Spirit) is personified in the man Christ Jesus.
I explain;
God is ONE person, spirit soul and body.
Body= Jesus, soul=Isa. 1:14, Spirit= Holy Spirit.
God has created you in His image, or likeness.
Spirit, soul and body 1Thes.5:23
As you can see and know that you are not three persons just like the Lord who created you in His image, is NOT three persons.
Takin, if you read the Bible with trinity glasses on, you can never see the glory of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
When I read the Bible, I always ask the Lord Jesus, that He would remove the plank in my eyes, so that I might be able to see clearly.
Perhaps that might help you to understand some difficult passages of the Scriptures which you have asked me.
If you look from another perspective, like
What does it NOT say!
What can it NOT say!
What can it NOT mean!
Example:
In Matthew 27:46 Jesus said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
It does NOT say that there are two persons who are God. If so, then there are two gods.
It can NOT say that there is someone else who is also God. If so, then the Lord thy God is not one anymore.
It can NOT mean that two separate persons make up one God. If so, then each person is half a god, two halves make one.
Now the same is, when Jesus says ‘Father’ you can apply the same example, I am sure the Lord Jesus will give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God.
Paul g,
You said,
“I rather say it like this, ‘God (who is Spirit) is personified in the man Christ Jesus.”
Is ‘God (who is Spirit)’ personal Spirit? Is the ‘man Christ Jesus’ who personifies ‘God (who is Spirit)’ personal. Is the person ‘God (who is Spirit)’ distinct from the person who is ‘the man Christ Jesus’?
You said,
“I like to make that clear, that the doctrine of God is the most important doctrine of all doctrines and no one should err on that. Anyone who is wrong in that doctrine is more likely wrong in all other doctrines of the Scripture, or worse ‘will die in their sin. John 8: 24”
Very true!
You said,
‘God is ONE person, spirit soul and body. Body= Jesus, soul=Isa. 1:14, Spirit= Holy Spirit.’
Do you believe that God in His essential nature has a body?
You said.
‘God has created you in His image, or likeness. Spirit, soul and body 1Thes.5:23’
God created man prior to the Incarnation. Are you saying that man has three parts (spirit, soul, body), and since God created man in His image, God, therefore has spirit, soul and body. How then did God have a body before the Incarnation?
You said,
“It does NOT say that there are two persons who are God. If so, then there are two gods. It can NOT say that there is someone else who is also God. If so, then the Lord thy God is not one anymore.”
See original post.
You said,
“It can NOT mean that two separate persons make up one God. If so, then each person is half a god, two halves make one.”
Again see the original post. There is no point arguing against Trinitarians by appealing to monotheism, because Trinitarians affirm that there is one and only one God. There is no point arguing against Trinitarians by saying it teaches that we somehow deny the Deity of Christ, because Trinitarians affirm the complete Deity of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit!
takin
Takin;
In your post, you said,
“For the Bible teaches that there is only one God (and it does.)”
Answer;
The Bible teaches that there are many gods, but only ONE true God, and that one true God is the Lord Jesus Christ 1 John 5:25.
You said,
“And that there are three Persons (it does), then the three divine Persons must be one God.”
Answer;
The Bible does NOT teach that there are three divine Persons, who together are one God.
The Bible teaches that there is only ONE divine Person who is the true God, Mark 12:29 and 1 John 5:25 and I have declared Him, (the Lord Jesus Christ!) any other Person is a false god.
Takin, I have given you enough information to know that the whole Bible speaks and points to Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation.
So then let every reader with a sound mind judge, whether God is three Persons or one Person.
Hey Takin,
I see you are still at it...
One thing I would like to contribute to the conversation, simply b/c it seems to be a favourite straw man of Paul G's:
His claim is that if there are 3 Persons in the Trinity, then you have each Divine Person being somehow fractionally (ie: 1/3) God.
Question: Does he accept that God is infinite? (I will anticipate a "yes" answer.)
Question: In mathematics, if Infinity is divided by three, do you arrive at 1/3 of infinity, or does it remain infinity?
Answer: Infinity divided by 3 = infinity.
Thus, his accusation of the Divine Nature in Father, Son, and Spirit being less than completely Divine in each person is based on a flawed assumption.
Mathematics which apply to finite numbers are different from those which apply to the infinite.
Similarily, logic which defines finite beings cannot be anthropomorphically projected as 'rules' to which Divinity can be said to conform. (...Another preferred tactic of Paul's)
Theophilus;
I am a spiritual man, not a mathematician.
God is NOT Infinity, (He is! Or, I am!)
God is ONE! Mark 12:29 (a finite number)
If you divide ONE, then ONE is NOT ONE anymore.
God is not divided. There is only one true God.
It is not as though the Father is 1/3 God the Son 1/3 God and the Holy Spirit 1/3 God. Rather, the Father Son and Holy Spirit are the one true God. The Father fully possesses the Deity, the Son fully possesses the Deity and the Holy Spirit fully possesses the Deity. The Three Persons are the One God.
Jesus said,
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
Literally, "WE are one."
I am not intending to infer that God is a mathematical construct. He is infinite, not infinity.
(You continue to either misunderstand, or deliberately misrepresent the Trinitarian position, I see)
I am not suggesting that each distinct person in the Godhead is somehow a portion of God. In fact, my point was the reverse.
In contrast to p.g.'s oft-cited "you believe in three little gods" rhetoric, I was stating why I do NOT believe in 3-little-gods.
I affirm Takin's biblical representation of God.
So... elaborate on your body/soul/spirit error, why don't you.
God is Spirit, and those who worship him do so in spirit and in truth.
Jesus isn't "Jesus" because of the Incarnation. He isn't merely "God's Body" as you seem to state, He predates the Incarnation:
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
Takin;
You rightly said God is not divided.
And then you divide God into three persons, just like all Trinitarians.
If Jesus is God, but not the Father, then you already have divided God.
I believe in ONE God Jesus Christ, apart from Him there is no other.
You said, “I and the Father are one”. Literally “We are one”
NO Takin!! We can NEVER be one! Apart from one in union, and still are we two or more.
A plural can never be a singular, you should have said, ‘Literally, “I am He”.
Theophilus;
You and Takin believe in the Catholic representation of God, and NOT in the biblical.
The Catholic representation is the Antichrist representation, because it teaches that Jesus is not God alone, (and thus Antichrist).
Yes Jesus predates the Incarnation without a body, (virgin birth) for God is Spirit, perhaps you want me to say ‘Jesus is the Spirit’, makes no difference.
You see! Jesus is always the stumbling block and a rock of offence.
And all of us should walk carefully, so that we do not stumble on the sovereignty of Jesus Christ our Lord who is God over all.
Paul,
I have noticed that you take me to (1) intentionally use the words I do, and then you endeavor to (2) refute them based on your (3)understanding that (4)both you (5)and I have a (6)common understanding of what our (7)words (8)mean.
I numbered these aspects of my point that you would consider them carefully.
One cannot convey ideas, however true, to another person successfully unless both parties possess intelligence, understanding, and commonalities of word usage.
Unless you doubt the inspiration of scripture (which I do not think you do) we have no choice but to believe that words therein appearing do so to speak honestly to the hearer.
There are times where parables are used, and figures of speech, but that is only found in where the audience is composed of some unbelievers. When the audience was open to His authority, he spoke more plainly.
In times like the upper room, when He was giving final instructions, He is using clear language (no parables) to His disciples. Reference John 16:29
-more...
In places like the upper room, where scripture has made it clear that Jesus spoke clearly to his disciples, and was not playing word-games to deceive them, He used some terms which have specific meaning, and are relevant to this discussion.
John 17: 1-5 as only one example (we discussed this once before) I will include relevant phrases.
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: [Note, not praying within, or "to" himself as the Pharisee]
“Father ... Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
The distinctions between Son and the Father, between the obedient and the obeyed, Sender and Sent, etc are plain to those who have eyes.
The only thing remaining is to determine 'why' they are there.
You have previously claimed it is some mystic parable.
If so, Jesus has dishonest and duplicitous prayers "to himself". That would be an unacceptable blasphemy. It would be play-acting to mime a prayer which is actually more of a soliloquy, (hypocrisy), particularly when he earlier prayed "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me."
I take Jesus, and His high-priestly prayer at its plain-language meaning, lest I be found to call Him a liar.
bonus question:
How is blasphemy against the Son different from blasphemy against the Spirit if there is no distinction?
This comment has been removed by the author.
takin said...
Excellent comment Theophilus.
This takes us back to the original post. There is no point in arguing about Trinitarians believing in more than one God, or that Jesus is less than God. This debate must center on whether or not the Bible teaches that there are Personal distinctions in the one true God.
You have demonstrated that there is certainly a Personal distinction between the Father and the Son. To deny this will take some serious twisting of John 17:1-5.
T.
Theophilus;
You and I do not have a common understanding what words mean.
My understanding is that three can NEVER be one!
It matters not what words we use.
To say “the three are one” defies intelligence.
I do not debate about words, but a fundamental error on yours and Takin’s behalf, that ‘three are one’ or ‘three Persons are one God’.
And it matters not what words you use.
My language is plain and simple, you and Takin will never know the truth, till the Lord Jesus may grant you to understand and see that three can NEVER be one, or three Persons can NEVER be one God.
And because you refuse to acknowledge the truth, it is impossible for you to understand John 17:1-26
And that includes your ‘bonus question’.
In regards to what the Spirit says to him who has ears to hear!
Every spirit who says that Jesus is not ALONE the Lord God the Almighty, who suggested, points to, teaches, preaches, etc. that there is someone other than the Lord Jesus Christ who is supposed to be God, that is definitely NOT the spirit of God.
I’m sorry, I have to catch a plane to China; (two weeks) if I get access to the net, I continuously comment, otherwise take care and fight the good fight of faith in our Lord and God Jesus Christ.
Paul G. Said,
“We can NEVER be one! Apart from one in union, and still are we two or more.
A plural can never be a singular, you should have said, ‘Literally, “I am He”.”
“We Can NEVER be one!”?
(John 14:23 ESV) Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make our home with him.
T.
You say: "And because you refuse to acknowledge the truth, it is impossible for you to understand John 17:1-26"
Try me. Defend your position as we are defending ours.
You pretend disdain of my appeal to literal meaning of words breathed by God Himself. You claim to cleave to the Word alone and eschew human logic and arguments. And yet, here it is:
You ignore long passages of scripture, and rather than resolve the inherent tension which runs contrary to your expectations, you shrug them off as meaningless.
You then couch your disdain for uncomfortable passages by appealing to the very arguement you criticized me for using: namely, Grammar.
And yet, yours is not an appeal to the straightforward use of grammar, insofar as there is subject and predicate, obedient and obeyed, sender and sent.
You say: “We Can NEVER be one!”?
Fine. So you say. Now demonstrate from scripture that Jesus was just kidding (or whatever term you would use) when he referred to His Father has having distinction in will, in role played in redemption, etc.
1 Corinthians 3:22-23; 1 Corinthians 11:3
His Word does not 'go away' when we dislike or chafe under it. At such time, it is even more important to grapple with it, and submit to it.
I must say that your ducking and weaving and failing to address scripture-based questions has some disturbing paralells to certain J.W.'s with whom I have discussed scripture.
Your words: "God is ONE person, spirit soul and body" [and later]
"Yes Jesus predates the Incarnation without a body, (virgin birth) for God is Spirit, perhaps you want me to say ‘Jesus is the Spirit’, makes no difference."
Of course it makes a difference.
You appealed to the body/soul/spirit analogy to explain your view of father/son/spirit.
Feel free to try again.
As for the greatest lie? You are incorrect.
It was: "Has God said...?"
"I have found in defending the biblical doctrine of the Trinity against this heresy, its adherents will not argue the point in dispute."
Is a valid assessment of the strategy of defending the anti-trinitarian position / attacking the Trinity. It has also been evident here.
Circumlocution (no matter how eloquent) and using irrelevant scriptures to "sharpen" a point will never provide adequate support for a doctrinal position. Even if that position is passionately held, as is the case with Paul G.
Takin;
John 14:23 and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Do you think that two persons will come and make their abode in you? The Father and Jesus! But where is the other person, the third person?
That could be very crowded for you!
Takin! I think you are a spiritual man and should know better.
Did you know that God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts! Gal.4:6
Theophilus;
The Bible is a spiritual book and does not exclude the intellect and logic but it is only discerned by the Spirit.
I can give you pages of Scriptural words and passages of which not even you would believe its literal meaning.
In due time I will explain all the difficult questions which you have asked, some times there is not a short answer for certain passages.
To the greatest lie;
You referred to Genesis 3:1 Satan said!
“Has God said”- that the Lord thy God is ONE? Mark 12:29
When the devil and all Trinitarians tell you, the Lord your God is three, you easily believe them.
You should believe what Jesus said. Mark 12:29
Modern day magi;
You and all Trinitarians always say!
‘The BIBLICAL doctrine of the Trinity”
I have demonstrated that the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT biblical, but Catholic and Antichrist.
I am not only attacking the Trinity, but rather exposing that devilish lie, because I am jealous for Christ’s sake for all of you who hold the testimony of Jesus, who preach and teach that God is three persons in one God.
You would do well, to severely reconsider your position in Christ Jesus our Lord who leads all His people into ALL the truth.
(John 14:23 ESV) Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make our home with him.
Paul G, I quoted John 14:23 in response to your statement;
“We can NEVER be one!”
In John 14:23 Jesus refers to Himself and His Father as WE. If, therefore, you are correct, and “We can NEVER be one!” then Jesus and His Father cannot be one in any way. But I believe Jesus and His Father are one. They, along with the Holy Spirit, are the one true God. It seems to me that you must drop your “We can NEVER be one!” argument in light of John 14:23.
You said,
“Do you think that two persons will come and make their abode in you? The Father and Jesus! But where is the other person, the third person? That could be very crowded for you!”
As a Christian, I have a relationship with the one true and living God, and with each of the Three Persons who are the one true God. God is Spirit. He does not take up physical space. Being crowded is not an issue.
You said,
“Modern day magi; You and all Trinitarians always say! ‘The BIBLICAL doctrine of the Trinity””
Not to speak for MDM, but the reason we “always say! ‘The BIBLICAL doctrine of the Trinity”” is because you unitarians “always” attack a trinity doctrine that is totally unlike the doctrine of God that we Trinitarians see so clearly on the pages of Scripture.
T.
Takin;
“We can NEVER be one”
I have used that argument in the light of John 14:23
You and I can never be one, that’s because we are two persons.
The same is with John 14:23
Jesus and another person can never be one, that’s because they are two persons.
Takin! If you can’t understand that, I am speechless, I don’t know what to say.
Paul G,
Again you said,
“We can NEVER be one”
Question #1:
Does Jesus refer to Himself and His Father with the plural personal pronoun "WE" in John 14:23?
Question #2:
Are Jesus and His Father one?
The answer to both questions must be YES. The "We" in John14:23 are ONE.
The question is, in what sense is Jesus and His Father one, and in what sense are they "WE."
Answer: Jesus and His Father (and the Holy Spirit) are one in that they share the one divine essence. Jesus and His Father (and the Holy Spirit) are "WE" in that they are in eternal personal relationship with one another.
There is a term that has been used to discribe these truths...what was it? Oh yes, that's it! The Trinity.
T.
Question:
John 17:11 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.
This goes back to Takin's question, in What Sense are they one?
Your belief is that Father/Son are Numerically One. Let's follow this to its conclusion. What, then is Jesus praying for us? Are we to be Numerically One? Certainly not!
Of course He meant that we be one in unity, in purpose, in mutual affection, and in all the other ways that Christians ought to be "one".
But, if Father and Son are merely One "numerically" then it is Impossible for Father and Son to be one in any other sense. -- I cannot be said to be in agreement with myself(!), since I have only one will. I can, however be said to be in agreement with another.
The question is: why did He reference Father (2nd person singular) and Son (1st person singular) as an example of the sort of unity that believers ought to posess?
Christians cannot be PHYSICALLY one, and you, in claiming "No Destinction between Father and Son", have said that God cannot be UNIFIED. Unity cannot exist in solitude. Did Jesus Christ Err in His example? No.
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